Why You Should Watch: D.E.B.S. with Queline Meadows (aka kikikrazed)

Queer kitsch, the varied career of Jimmi Simpson, and whether 'Charlie's Angels knockoff' is such a bad thing after all. In this episode I'm joined by video essayist Queline Meadows (aka Kikikrazed) to explore why D.E.B.S., a lesbian spy parody directed by Angela Robinson in 2001, is a queer comedy is worth watching.

 00:00:02:09 - 00:00:23:09
Will
Hi. I'm Will Webb, and this is why you should watch. In today's episode, we're looking at DEBS, the 2003 spy comedy directed by Angela Robinson. Before we get started, if you aren't subscribed yet, then make sure you are so you don't miss out on another cracking episode in future. And if you could leave a comment and give the video a thumbs up, that would be awesome.

00:00:23:23 - 00:00:25:06
Will
Okay. On with the episode.

00:00:27:06 - 00:00:53:13
Voiceover
Deep within a college exam is a secret test. It measures a student's innate ability to lie, cheat, fight and destroy those who score well are recruited into a secret paramilitary university. Some call them seductress, as some call them spies. Fools call them innocent. They call themselves Debs.

00:00:54:14 - 00:01:21:09
Will
Amy is top of her class at the Debs Academy, where the spies of tomorrow receive their top secret training. But a chance encounter with supervillain Lucy Diamond leads Amy to question her place in Debs, as well as her own sexuality. Joining me to discuss this movie is Queline Meadows, a video essayist whose previous work includes plenty of sight and sound, mentions commissions for the BFI and a physical media release on the film wolfwalkers.

00:01:21:18 - 00:01:25:02
Will
Hope you enjoy our discussion. Hi, Queline, and welcome to the show. Hey.

00:01:25:02 - 00:01:28:00
Queline
Well, thank you for having me. I'm very happy to be here.

00:01:28:00 - 00:01:45:24
Will
Oh, no, thank you. And thank you so much for picking such an interesting film. When I get in touch with people about being in the podcast, what I often say is like, I want to hear about what you think of really interesting films. They don't even have to be good. And I think Debs is like right on the line of being maybe more interesting than good.

00:01:46:03 - 00:02:06:29
Will
I think it's definitely merging the good, but it may not even be good, but we might get into that as we go. I'm happy to have like a fight about it. It's great. And I know that you're a as I use your video essayist and we know each other through discourse, we're part of what I guess we sometimes call in our CVS a collective of video assets who function, who organize remotely.

00:02:06:29 - 00:02:14:09
Will
And one of the things that's come up in that a lot is that you are like a massive rom com fan, particularly Hugh Grant.

00:02:14:09 - 00:02:18:19
Queline
Movies. Yeah, yeah. Notting Hill is is number one for me.

00:02:19:00 - 00:02:21:06
Will
Have you engage with any of the discourse about Notting Hill?

00:02:21:11 - 00:02:22:29
Queline
What's the discourse? What? What?

00:02:23:17 - 00:02:50:03
Will
So Notting Hill, the area of London is a historically black area. It's one of the main historic black areas of London. It's also where our carnival is, is where like the Afro-Caribbean and Caribbean community particular lived from about the fifties onwards. So the fact that Notting Hill, the most famous depiction of this area, features no black cast at all, as far as I can remember, is like quite a discussed point in like for film criticism.

00:02:50:13 - 00:03:12:25
Will
It's interesting because it like it. I think about it as being the the peak of like Blair, Tony Blair like neo liberal cinema because it's basically like imagine a London where there were no black people. Everything was fine in this area. Yeah. So it's interesting. I mean, I really like Richard Curtis movies for what they are. I don't have like a great love of rom coms.

00:03:12:25 - 00:03:13:20
Will
Like, I know you do.

00:03:13:23 - 00:03:16:20
Queline
Yeah, I do know that. I love you, girl. You know that at all about Notting Hill?

00:03:16:21 - 00:03:35:10
Will
I will send you off this. There was a like, I guess what we now call adult animation show on BBC three, which was like a teen focused channel. That kind of come and gone from the airwaves over the years over here. And they did a surreal animated sketch show, basically. And one of the sketches was them shooting at Notting Hill.

00:03:35:10 - 00:04:06:01
Will
It came out in 2000 for the program. And so it's like Hugh Grant as a caricature, like wobbling around of a giant has and there's like a big brick wall and armed police, like holding out anyone who's like, I think they're darker than like a certain color scheme. Yeah. So yeah, it's an interesting it's interesting legacy and I've always wanted to think about like doing a Blair Blair romcoms thing because there's also like Billy Elliot from that time is very light of a school of that kind of film.

00:04:06:27 - 00:04:24:28
Will
But I do love Hugh Grant. I have to say, I think he's like a fab actor. And when he's actually trying, which is, I don't know, maybe half the time he can be he can really act. Yeah, but I love his particular brand of just like, awful. He's great. And I like that he can play a villain and a romantic lead with basically the same character.

00:04:25:24 - 00:04:45:00
Will
He never really changes it. Like to think about how he is in Bridget Jones, where he's essentially the bad guy versus how he is in one of my favorites. And I've said that I confess that I've ever tackled music and lyrics. Oh, okay. Yeah. I like it because it has an excellent fake song in it. Oh, yeah, there's not many.

00:04:45:02 - 00:04:46:17
Queline
Pop Goes My Heart. Yeah, yeah.

00:04:47:01 - 00:05:06:22
Will
Oh, yeah. One of my favorite 80 songs that was not made in the eighties. And yeah, I think even the song at the end is quite good. But yeah, as a as a movie overall, it's not great. But I think that that's like the nadir of his rom com experience, right? He kind of after that took a bit of time off and then did Cloud Atlas where he ate someone.

00:05:06:25 - 00:05:07:25
Will
And I think that kind of.

00:05:08:03 - 00:05:08:10
Queline
That.

00:05:08:16 - 00:05:12:16
Will
Gave him and it gave him a new reputation. And now he does gangster movies nicely.

00:05:12:27 - 00:05:15:23
Queline
And he's going to be in the new Dungeons and Dragons movie, too.

00:05:16:24 - 00:05:34:09
Will
He is, indeed. Yeah. I saw a beautiful interview of someone trying to explain to him what a DM was and him thinking it was something to do with BDSM, which is just like he obviously is not engaged at all, which I love. Good for him. I mean, that's fair enough. And so it's fun that you chose a rom com for us to talk about.

00:05:34:09 - 00:05:52:02
Will
We did actually talk about chatting for me and all of the dying girl, which I think is like a really interesting pic, but maybe for another episode. But Depth is a movie that I like, have very fond memories of having seen the first time, and then I have not watched it about a decade until like about a week ago.

00:05:52:09 - 00:05:56:03
Will
And I would love to hear about how you first came to see that.

00:05:56:12 - 00:06:23:02
Queline
Well, when I watch it, today was my sixth time seeing it. The first time I watched it, it was my freshman year of college. I was 18 and I think I was just like making my way through different like lesbian movies like I had seen. But I'm a cheerleader, I think, these days, but I'm a cheerleader is like the first lesbian movie that a lot of like baby gays will watch.

00:06:24:07 - 00:06:39:29
Queline
So I had seen that a million times and then I heard about Debs. I don't even know, probably like Letterboxd or something. So I watched it on like some legal website and yeah, I just thought it was so awesome and fun.

00:06:41:09 - 00:06:45:27
Will
Yeah. How did you watch it? Like you slept in a dorm room sort of environment. Do you watch it with people?

00:06:45:27 - 00:06:47:04
Queline
I watch it with one of my friends.

00:06:47:23 - 00:07:03:19
Will
We I feel like that's a that's that's how I saw it the first time as well. And I feel like that is a better way of doing it because there's something sort of like crowd pleasing about it that I think maybe doesn't hold up if you watch it just on your own. Like I did this by where I watched any new for the first time as well.

00:07:05:00 - 00:07:27:29
Will
I think it would have been about about six, seven years old. Then the L word had come and gone, which is what Andrew Robinson, the director of this, did after Debs. So I actually did one other thing after Debs that we'll talk about in a sec. But yeah, L-word was the next one. And I actually was also going through all the gay movies basically when I was at uni and they had I'd seen but I'm a cheerleader.

00:07:27:29 - 00:07:53:12
Will
It was like 1 a.m. on film for I was just like one of our free to air film channels in the UK. And I, it's not surprising to me that the Debs would come up. I feel like Debs is what IMDB would recommend you if you had just watched. If you'd gone to the page of I'm a Cheerleader, there's about three years between them and I think there was a real move in comedy in general to go towards like more surreal stuff, heightened sort of settings.

00:07:54:25 - 00:08:05:11
Will
And then there's also that like there's a reaction against it. Like Anchorman is like the dividing line, I think, when they start doing like improv instead and that's 2004, which is the same year this came out. It's all right. You've all.

00:08:06:10 - 00:08:07:10
Queline
Got to take your word and.

00:08:07:10 - 00:08:19:04
Will
Release period because it was indie. Yeah, okay. But yeah, I'd heard about it because it won. She won an award at Sundance for the short film The Starter Off. Have you seen the short film?

00:08:19:04 - 00:08:19:15
Queline
No.

00:08:20:20 - 00:08:49:19
Will
So it's essentially the opening title sequence of the film. It's basically like an intro for a fake TV show about Debs and it has like the SAT tests and stuff like that, which is great and it's really fun, a very crowd pleasing. And I think at Sundance they must have been like, Well, fuck, fuck. It's like fun. And I do think that's like the place that it has in the kind of queer cinema canon and in America anyway, because like so many LGBT films are tremendously sad, like for really good reason, but it's nice to have like, like fun.

00:08:50:01 - 00:09:10:10
Will
And I think even but I'm a cheerleader is very much about it's about gay conversion camps, right? Like it's not inherently a fun premise, it's just the way that the film treats it. And so yeah, I would have introduced the plot a little bit, but just to recap it, like Debs basically is about a group of indeterminate aged girls.

00:09:10:10 - 00:09:12:25
Will
I think they're supposed to be like in their early twenties.

00:09:12:25 - 00:09:13:04
Queline
Yeah.

00:09:13:20 - 00:09:44:12
Will
But they're wearing schoolgirl outfits and they tend to institution with a headmistress that seems to be training them for spy work. And no one really knows how they're select, why they're selected as they're selected through the SAT test. And they have a handler who is Michael Clarke Duncan dearly departed massive nerd that he was and yeah it basically uses that as a jumping off point to tell essentially like a coming out story within the context of supervillains and a very cops and robbers way.

00:09:44:12 - 00:09:55:06
Will
So I was wondering like, what hit you about that when you first watched it? Because you I guess you'd seen all the major rom coms by this point, right? You'd seen the holy text. Yeah. The Richard Curtis is the Nancy Meyers.

00:09:55:25 - 00:10:23:15
Queline
Yeah. Well, I think the thing is, especially with like other gay movies, it's like a lot of them, like they're good, but they have to do with like coming out is like a major conflict. Like being gay is a major conflict. Like and with Debs. The the real problem with Amy. Amy, I think is the one who gets the Lucy Diamond.

00:10:23:15 - 00:10:42:18
Queline
It's like, yes, she discovers that she's gay. But to me, like in the film, the problem is just that she's, like, sleeping with the enemy, you know? It's like, not like really an issue that that she's queer. So I just, like that.

00:10:42:18 - 00:10:49:07
Will
I think no one actually mentions it when they find her in bed. They're like, immediately, like, oh, come on. Like, she's the enemy instead of anything else.

00:10:49:10 - 00:11:10:20
Queline
Like someone like Holland, Taylor's character or the headmistress makes a joke, like, Oh, like you wanted to have your collegiate lesbian fling in style. Well, yeah, it's just like it just. And I just. I think it's nice to watch a movie where it's not a big deal that someone's gay. So.

00:11:11:16 - 00:11:34:04
Will
Yeah, and it seems like not unexpected within the context either. One of the things that strikes me really early on is that we meet this super villain character, who's Lucy Diamond, which is his greatest Jordana Brewster, who I think is underrated. I mean, she's very funny and she's very funny in this context. I think the name of her lackey, the actor, could really recognize him.

00:11:34:05 - 00:11:34:17
Queline
Good.

00:11:34:17 - 00:11:34:27
Will
Yes.

00:11:34:27 - 00:11:36:11
Queline
Got played by Jimmi Simpson.

00:11:36:26 - 00:11:55:16
Will
Yeah. Who's like well, these people, he pops up in, like hundreds of things in like small but weird roles. He always plays that character and he's a great kind of counterpoint to her. And we see her like doing some evil plan that looks like she's setting up a hit. And then it turns out to be the she's being set up on a first date with this ex assassin or possibly current assassin.

00:11:56:01 - 00:12:24:25
Will
And what I like about that is that there's no there's not a moment there over this character who is out already. There is no moment in the film text of like a reveal that she's gay. The reveal is that she's going on this first date. He's really anxious about it. Yeah. And that even is different. I keep going back to it, but I think it is a kind of interesting comparison of I I'm a cheerleader because that is about a coming out that is complex for the courage to navigate, whereas isn't really for Amy.

00:12:24:25 - 00:12:54:19
Will
And even like Amy's main relationship problem is that she already has a boyfriend. More than that, she's gay. Yeah. I was struck, you know, watching it. Just how cheap it looks and feels, which is like an interesting thing to consider. It's right when the first digital films were starting to come out, because I even if you watch Attack of the Clones, the second Star Wars prequel, it looks awful by modern standards and in similar ways.

00:12:54:19 - 00:13:26:24
Will
And that was shot around the same time. But I do think that almost plays into what works in the film. For me, as you might have gotten the sense I didn't love the film watching it again, but it's a it's fundamentally camp, right? And I mean that not in the way of like how sometimes people think about camp has been like this certain kind of shall be style but in the sense that it's using this really stupid spy kind of context to basically present a very straightforward lesbian love story kind of in that as well.

00:13:27:00 - 00:13:37:14
Will
And they're in a way like looking really cheap to me, kind of sells that, like it makes it feel more like and deliberately trashy or something like that. It gives it that kind of camp energy.

00:13:37:14 - 00:13:48:00
Queline
Yeah. I also I've watched to prepare for this. I watched Charlie's Angels for the first time 2001, and it felt very much like it was riffing on that too, just like.

00:13:48:08 - 00:13:49:06
Will
A 100.

00:13:49:06 - 00:13:52:01
Queline
Stylized nature and the corniness.

00:13:53:20 - 00:14:24:10
Will
I can't tell if it's riffing on like the original Charlie's Angels or that remake more. But yeah, it's it's absolutely a Charlie's Angels parody. And even down to like the having people of different ethnicities and different roles within the group, you know, Roger Ebert, actually, who did not like the film, it may not surprise you to know, described it as no more than lesbian angels, which I actually think is is very on the money, but also nowhere near the insult that he thinks it is, because I think that's exactly the point.

00:14:24:10 - 00:14:52:17
Will
Right. And even like the dialog delivery kind of has that level of humor to it. Like there's a complete lack of apparent stakes within these. Okay. So to break it down, I guess there's two major stories going on, right? There's a story about a spy agency hunting a supervillain who they think is like a mass murderer. They obviously we find out that she is and she has stolen a lot and she did try to kill everyone in Australia, including during the film.

00:14:52:17 - 00:14:53:05
Will
But yeah.

00:14:53:12 - 00:15:00:28
Queline
She tried to sing Australia. It's just such a bizarre thing for a villain to do for ransom.

00:15:00:28 - 00:15:25:25
Will
Yeah. And then there's also this, like, kind of immediate attraction when Amy, who's the kind of head student, the best girl in the class, meets Lucy finally and what she thinks is a professional fascination turned into a romantic one. And so I guess the point of the film is that there's a tension between those two things, right? Like they're playing with this very over-the-top thing, which is kind of prosaic story.

00:15:26:05 - 00:15:42:19
Will
And for me, the big problem that I had watching this was that I don't think I love the central love story and I think all the scenes of that are great. I don't think they actually have enough fun with the rest of it. So do you think the film's a comedy? And I think there isn't enough Dead's fun.

00:15:42:23 - 00:16:00:29
Will
MM So there's a couple of bits. There's a bit right at the start when they walk into the house and you see they have a forcefield around the house. Yeah. And the forcefield is tilted, it's like clad in the same way that their skirts are the same. That was awesome and that's really funny. Yeah, that's a great joke and a really good visual joke too.

00:16:01:10 - 00:16:15:02
Will
And I just wish there was more of like interesting. Roger Ebert said this in his review as well. He was like, the moment we step into like a spy college that dresses everyone like Catholic schoolgirls, I start thinking, what are the classes?

00:16:15:02 - 00:16:15:23
Queline
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:15:26 - 00:16:35:25
Will
What do they have for dinner? You know, like, tell me about some of this stuff that sounds really weird. And for my money, I think that actually ends up damaging the love story bit because the tension that should be building up there with her being a supervillain. Likewise, because we don't really get much sense of how she's a supervillain, doesn't really end up landing in the same way that you would want it to.

00:16:36:03 - 00:16:37:28
Will
I have to know what you think about that.

00:16:37:28 - 00:16:54:27
Queline
Oh, yeah. I would have wanted just to see to flesh out the Deb's world more like especially since like Amy is like doing her thesis on Lucy Diamond. I just think that's so funny that she's that she's doing a thesis on a real supervillain and then she meets.

00:16:54:27 - 00:16:56:11
Will
She's completely wrong as well. Yeah.

00:16:56:25 - 00:17:11:06
Queline
And it's like it's like she's like doing like psycho analysis and stuff on Lucy Diamond. It's like, it's so silly that I wish. I don't know, I. Well, I'd like to hear what other people are doing their thesis papers on.

00:17:11:24 - 00:17:18:01
Will
Oh well I guess it's like I don't know if you know this, but it's near the magic circle. This is like the professional organization for the magicians.

00:17:18:14 - 00:17:19:13
Queline
Now, are you mean.

00:17:20:00 - 00:17:20:05
Will
Like.

00:17:20:12 - 00:17:21:02
Queline
Magicians.

00:17:21:11 - 00:17:54:21
Will
A magician? No, I'm not in the magic circle. But to join the magic circle in the UK, at least you have to write a thesis. Oh, you have to write a thesis on a topic of magic. So, you know, Darren Brown is a British magician, he is a mentalist. So he does like mind control. That's a very big on British TV and a while ago but he wrote his dissertation on like mediumship how people fake ghost readings right so that's like you can't write theses on really weird topics that are very specific but as you say, like I would love to know what everyone else is doing in the class.

00:17:55:01 - 00:18:03:00
Will
Like Dominique, this woman whose sole function in the film is to be really horrible for no reason and smoke. Yeah, but what's her class? What does he do?

00:18:04:04 - 00:18:36:08
Queline
Yeah. I also like to see with the. The college, I just think it's so crazy. It kind of implies that they're forced to go there if they're, if they pass the secret sat like section with just like bizarre. But I mean, it kind of like if you want to, like, give a look at it in like the clear way, like it's kind of playing with that idea of like what you're forced to do, what you're expected to do versus what you actually want to do.

00:18:36:29 - 00:18:37:24
Will
Oh yeah.

00:18:38:00 - 00:18:38:16
Queline
It's just very.

00:18:38:16 - 00:18:59:24
Will
Flat a lot of the time, people. Yeah, I guess it's like people saying to her, like you, you're such a perfect student. Why would you throw this away to pursue this other thing? I mean, that does have some corollaries with like stories that queer people tell about what people say to them basically when they come out. So to tie that back to what I said about being cheap, I wasn't just being mean.

00:18:59:24 - 00:19:19:09
Will
I generally think this is because they don't have enough money to show that stuff. It's not for time because there's about four montages in the film that are the great and very camp and all like set to pop songs, but they are like very like draggy on the film's pace. And I'm assuming that they couldn't pay for full college.

00:19:19:15 - 00:19:30:14
Will
They didn't have the time to put people in certain rooms. Some of the scenes, including a lot of the stuff with Oh, you said her name earlier on the well-known older female.

00:19:30:16 - 00:19:31:10
Queline
Holland Taylor as the.

00:19:31:10 - 00:19:31:27
Will
Headmistress.

00:19:32:01 - 00:19:32:12
Queline
Taylor.

00:19:32:14 - 00:19:51:14
Will
Holland Taylor. A lot of scenes with her seem to be green screens, but she's she's actually superimposing some locations. I don't think she was actually on set for a lot of it. And yeah, it just means that they it limits the feasible scope of the film. Like I would love to get like Marvel saying that they're going to do like they're going to have gay characters.

00:19:51:14 - 00:20:06:20
Will
So Disney's first gay character, right? Give Angela Robinson the money to do Debs to where it's like massive budget. It's like big lesbian spy academy. Let go. I'd be great. I was wondering if you've seen anything else of Angela Robinson's work, but.

00:20:07:12 - 00:20:16:14
Queline
I don't think so. She did the did she do? Professor Marston and the Wonder Woman. I haven't seen that, but yeah, let me see.

00:20:16:23 - 00:20:17:25
Will
So it's interesting, like what.

00:20:17:25 - 00:20:19:15
Queline
Else she's done.

00:20:19:15 - 00:20:37:15
Will
I can I've got a little list here if you want to hear. Okay. So she did the L Word. She did about 25 episodes of the L Word, which is like great. She did she produced the show Hung, which run for a while. So she directed some of that as well. She did one episode of the Charlie's Angels TV show reboot that happened in 2011.

00:20:37:15 - 00:20:57:20
Will
So yeah, she's obviously a massive Charlie's Angels fan. And then she also produced True Blood and How to Get Away With Murder. So she's a really prolific creator in TV and some of that comes across here. I don't think there's anything particularly special about how the films directed that said Professor Marston, The Wonder Women, if you haven't seen it.

00:20:57:27 - 00:20:58:25
Queline
Goodness, no, I know.

00:20:58:25 - 00:21:31:11
Will
I'm really underrated. Yeah. And it was interesting watching that because that also is about using a a campy kind of overblown figure, writes Wonder Woman, to bring forward a story of not I guess I guess you call it queer love like a polyamorous relationship in the 1870s, right? Yeah this queer because it's Twitter and it so I was just thinking about like the list of things that are not queer in my head and especially because that film is very, very astute in a way that Debs isn't.

00:21:31:24 - 00:21:57:10
Will
And it's also obviously not that expensive, but does a lot with very little to kind of tell its story. And I guess it's different because it's a period film, but it is interesting to kind of see those as to takes on the same sort of concept, I guess like that she would want to explore those things. I think for what it's worth, I love that she has consistently worked on making stuff that's over genre stuff or has LGBT leads, and quite often it's both.

00:21:58:12 - 00:22:20:07
Will
And she's doing it entirely in like a non arthouse kind of perspective. I mean that's great. And then she is also openly she's an out gay woman, so it's like, yeah, an older black gay director working in the high as bits of American TV. Right. That's a good thing. Right. And I think she has made some really good stuff there.

00:22:20:08 - 00:22:25:07
Will
She made one of her film it, which came out in the same year, which was Herbie Fully Loaded.

00:22:25:07 - 00:22:25:24
Queline
Oh.

00:22:26:22 - 00:22:29:01
Will
Yeah. Lindsay Lohan's. Yeah.

00:22:29:01 - 00:22:30:23
Queline
That's like the racing one, right?

00:22:31:08 - 00:22:58:05
Will
Yeah. Yeah. So Herbie was like an original franchise also from the same errors as Charlie's Angels, and it's about like a sentient car that's at the scented Volkswagen Beetle that has a funny personality of its own. They did about five movies in the sixties through to the eighties, I think. And then they did Herbie Fully Loaded, which is the first time that anyone ever used CGI to reduce the size of someone's breasts in post-production for real.

00:22:58:19 - 00:23:16:23
Will
This is like was a major news story when it came out and yeah, so she was running in slow motion in some scenes and the execs at Disney refunded. The film felt that it was too it was obscene. So they digitally, you know, slimmed down Lindsay Lohan and yeah, I don't know how I would Robinson felt about that.

00:23:16:23 - 00:23:18:04
Will
Probably not great. Yeah. See.

00:23:19:11 - 00:23:20:06
Queline
That's crazy.

00:23:20:12 - 00:23:42:09
Will
I did like looking at it. Yeah, it's so weird. I mean, that has happened since as well, like a lot. And to the point of like if you saw that film full, which is about like two women stuck up a radio tower, but they wanted to get a lower license for the theatrical release, so they faked the actors faces to take out all the swears.

00:23:42:22 - 00:23:43:24
Queline
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:43:25 - 00:24:13:14
Will
So they had loads and loads of swearing in it. Yeah. And the sweary version has been put on Netflix. Interesting. They could do that kind of stuff. It's funny enough actually I watched Mean Girls today. I'm thinking about like queer subtext in films that came out in 2004 with Lindsay Lohan. Anyway. So the other thing that I wanted to just talk about is whiffing and it ties in to the cheap thing to there is something like deliberately poorly about the film, right?

00:24:13:27 - 00:24:35:03
Will
Like it's funny because it's a very chaste film. I think like there's this bit I me significantly they walk in on her when she's in bed with her lover, which is like, you know, still pretty chaste. But I, they are like in these little Catholic schoolgirl outfits, which I think are very light. LEARY And it's also filled with ostensibly, I guess like a female gaze.

00:24:35:03 - 00:24:56:23
Will
I don't think there's a particularly strong like it's not like a revealing in the content, but maybe I'm being followed by that video. Look, I don't know what you think. I like watching women walk around in, like, tiny skirts in, like, ditzy digital video. Just weird, like the the tension that that has with what the film is trying to do.

00:24:56:23 - 00:25:22:26
Queline
Yeah, I don't know. It's pretty silly, but I don't know. I well, to me I think it works for the, the kind of the Charlie's Angels like parody and also just like this kind of extreme femininity that Amy is like forced into and then wants to break out of. I think it kind of I don't know, it works for that.

00:25:22:26 - 00:25:28:19
Queline
It is like kind of silly. But also for me when I watch, I just like write it off like. Oh 24 you know.

00:25:30:13 - 00:25:51:02
Will
Yeah. I wonder if that was yeah, maybe. Right. Maybe that was something she had to do to get the film made. And I do love that scene where they go to that club on the beach that's like covered in graffiti and like UV lights and full of punks. It looks great. And one of the biggest surprises in the film, like in a film of that era, you'd normally have a bit when they're like, Who are these people?

00:25:51:02 - 00:26:11:03
Will
And then they're like, Lighten up. You go to like a lot about, well, that's really like kind of vague. And instead her friend Janet just immediately walks off, start dancing with Scott in the club, and it's like, fine with it, which I love. It's very good. Oh, yeah. We didn't talk about the other the other main characters does so that she's in a kind of for people unit.

00:26:11:22 - 00:26:20:21
Will
You have David Aoki who plays Dominique. Who is this like scowling French, Asian smoking lady?

00:26:20:21 - 00:26:26:06
Queline
Yeah. Her only purpose is to, like, have little terrible French accent one liners.

00:26:26:21 - 00:26:47:25
Will
She's easily the worst actor of the film. And I always said, I think that's necessarily her fault because there's nothing for her to do in the movie. And then there's Amy is the central one. Then there's Janet who's like kind of not very good at school, but is kind of her friend. And then there's Megan Good, who plays Max is her name, right?

00:26:47:29 - 00:27:10:27
Will
And Max is a black woman who's like in this unit and she is the leader of the squad, but somehow like second best to Amy in a way that I don't really understand and says horrible. It's like like weird me out like watching the film is that Max consistently schemes against I suppose a best friend and only in the last like 5 minutes, just out of nowhere is like so good in a way that is very confusing.

00:27:11:08 - 00:27:33:09
Will
But I just thought was worth noting. I also think she's, she's good in it. I like her performance more than I like Amy's actually. Yeah at don't how you felt about Amy's performance watching it back I doesn't help I think the best person in the film is Jordanna Bristow. And because they share so many scenes, you're kind of constantly being like, Oh, I wish that Amy was good.

00:27:33:09 - 00:27:50:08
Queline
Yeah, Amy is kind of very like, boring, kind of. Well, Max, I don't know. I kind of understand why she's, like, mean, because she wants to be the like, what is the award that Amy It's like Val valedictorian but.

00:27:50:11 - 00:28:01:07
Will
Yeah and end game is there like that prom equivalent right to do like a final battle royale or something and then have a problem. Yeah. Which again, like, I wish, like, show me. I want to see it.

00:28:02:00 - 00:28:22:02
Queline
It's like Max just. I think Max just wants to be the best. I don't know. And then to see someone who doesn't even want to be a Deb continues to be like get handed all of, like the awards and leadership roles, I think. I don't know. I think I would be mad.

00:28:22:02 - 00:28:39:01
Will
But I guess I haven't really considered that they basically not voluntary as far as we can tell. So like the whole thing of Max being like, don't you want to be a Deb makes even less sense in that context because it's like as far as I was that being coerced and that in some way or another, or at least they're not really presented with alternative options.

00:28:39:11 - 00:29:11:13
Will
She just says she wants to go to art school in Paris. Right. Which is just like wild because we never see her do it or anything. I love that. For her, it's great. What a dream to go live a like scuzzy bit of Paris and yeah so I was one question that I ask often on this is if you were going to show like an excerpt of this to somebody who wanted to see the film but kind of wanted a bit of a sense of it, it does have one of those embarrassing trailers from pre 2000 where it's like a man saying the plot of the film over the top of shots of it.

00:29:12:09 - 00:29:21:18
Will
So like if there was a sequence or scene in particular that you think that really sells the film and and why you think that's the case.

00:29:21:18 - 00:30:08:09
Queline
I would have to say, well, what you talked about earlier, the scene where Lucy Diamond goes on a blind date and the debs like do like a stakeout. Well, it shows like pretty much all the characters. So you get a sense of that and it also kind of it it shows that Lucy Diamond is like not your average villain.

00:30:08:09 - 00:30:19:09
Queline
Like she's literally just on a date looking for a love or whatever. And then when the, like, the debs are like up really high, like suspended on this little, like, I don't know, spy chairs.

00:30:20:06 - 00:30:23:27
Will
Yeah. They like the things that the like wall painters use, right.

00:30:24:03 - 00:30:24:22
Queline
Yeah.

00:30:25:08 - 00:30:27:05
Will
The people who clean windows on buildings.

00:30:27:10 - 00:30:45:02
Queline
Just like it's like this. This building with an outrageously high ceiling. And like once the debs are like, discovered up there, like, I like the shootout is just like very, just very Debs. Like there's like the slow mo walks and stuff.

00:30:45:08 - 00:30:52:23
Will
That have huge guns. Like Max has like a massive guy with a huge site on the top as well.

00:30:52:23 - 00:30:59:23
Queline
Yeah. So I think that scene, it just it really just kind of sums up the whole vibe of the movie.

00:31:01:07 - 00:31:28:02
Will
I like that scene a lot because I think the film's at its best when it's doing some physical comedy or like some slight gags, and that scene is really full of both of those things. Um, like I always feel a temptation from Andrew Robinson to make like a Top Gun type movie, not Top Gun, what's it called, but Hot Shots or like it's like with Leslie Nielsen could be in it, you know, like it's that kind of very sight gag, heavy type stuff.

00:31:28:02 - 00:31:48:14
Will
In the first 30 minutes, I do feel like the film loses pace really badly once they actually kind of like start getting together because it's all like the tension, the actual plot of the film up until that point is all about like that. Will they? Won't they kind of thing. But that first 20 minutes up until they get into the club is great.

00:31:48:25 - 00:32:07:03
Will
And yeah, I would absolutely say like that scene is really indicative of it. I like the absurdity of it too, as you say, that that this ceiling is gigantic. There's like it's huge. It's like they're in the in that famous hotel in San Francisco. It's in loads of movies that has, like, glass elevators and like a massive atrium.

00:32:07:12 - 00:32:28:00
Will
It's like that. Like, it's massive. And I think some of that was done practically. It does seem to be like a huge location, but all of that stuff is done on green screen. All of the stuff when they're on like the the platform. And Amy's maybe ex-boyfriend continuously comes in, interrupts their spying during the sequence, which I find really funny.

00:32:28:02 - 00:32:46:05
Will
Yeah. And they so he's like, you know, whirring up and down and they're all like swaying around a bit. And actually I noticed that they changed the debs change order on the platform in between some of those transitions. Oh really. As if they're like yeah. As if they're like somehow shuffling between each other, which I think is like such a cute sight gag.

00:32:46:13 - 00:33:06:11
Will
And there's also they're not the only agency staking out the thing, right? So we first see the debs there and then her boyfriend shows up who I think is with the DEA. And then there's the FBI. Is there the CIA is there. And they just like whip pan around this like roof where there's like random dudes on platforms kind of hanging all around.

00:33:06:27 - 00:33:37:03
Will
And I think that's a really funny like that for me is an example of like what I want them to be, where it's like it's playing with this spy stuff a bit more and is having some more fun like with that, with that other stuff around the Lucy Diamond story. Interestingly, the the short is basically uses that will they like it doesn't reveal that they're getting together it's like told within the context of this TV show.

00:33:37:03 - 00:33:59:00
Will
VOICEOVER So it's sort of like repeatedly has her being kidnaped by this supervillain and her friends always being like, Oh, we managed to get you out of your her bedchamber where you were tied up and she's like, Yeah, like it's like that. And that to me, like that speaks to a more interesting version of this as like a comedy, if you think about it in its structural sense, not that I like, I think there's plenty of good laughs in it.

00:33:59:00 - 00:34:08:27
Will
I just think that's that there's maybe a better way of make it work as a story through that. Yeah and that that 20 minutes at the start that bit that you talked about just then really does sell it. Yeah.

00:34:08:28 - 00:34:32:22
Queline
Because once they, once they get together they're kind of just like in love, like head over heels, like and it's like, okay, a little boring. And then like there's like that montage of their relationship that lasts one week. We find out later, it's like, Yeah, I don't know. It just, it's, but it's nice. I like, just, like seeing just like the cheesy, happy stuff.

00:34:33:19 - 00:34:53:07
Will
I like them like when they're in there like said, they have this relationship where they, the dead think that she's been kidnaped. Really. She's like willingly with her lover. And there's this whole section where they're just like lounging around in, like, pajamas. And I love the idea that they just have, I don't know, like super villain pajamas that were difficult thing for a costumer to do.

00:34:54:25 - 00:35:17:13
Will
She's like, more like the punky and a supervillain, right? She feels like, I guess like like a Batman Forever type villain more than like, say, a Blofeld from from James Bond. Because I sat in pajamas. That's the only guess I have. Like, it's, like, really sleek and cool. Yeah. I don't know if she'd do it. She's wearing, like, t shirts and, like, PJ bottoms, you know, like, it's it's really weird.

00:35:17:29 - 00:35:36:26
Will
And I also like, there's that there's a bit in that when they have that kind of meaningful connection when she's like, What do you really want to do for life apart from a dad? And she tells her about her apparent dream of being an artist in Paris and Lucy. I can't read what she has, but she also has like she wants to do, and it's kind of made clear she's going to be a villain particularly.

00:35:37:05 - 00:35:55:16
Will
But like like Amy, she is compelled into it because she was born into it. And what you're saying about there being that kind of metaphor about like something about how heteronormativity kind of lines you up for this life that you maybe want to have? I kind of want to pull that out more like give me more of that stuff.

00:35:56:09 - 00:36:19:27
Will
I don't know if I if I was going to pitch it again. It was Deb's to when Marvel finally makes it, you know, like I'd love a Hannibal Lecter type thing instead, like and that is where Hannibal Lecter eventually goes. Like start off with Lucy getting caught and then have the star student who has written her thesis on her come in to interview her and then be like, This girl's great.

00:36:20:29 - 00:36:23:17
Will
And it kind of be that's like a bit more tension, you know?

00:36:23:17 - 00:36:27:05
Queline
It it reminds me of, like, killing Eve a little bit.

00:36:27:29 - 00:36:28:28
Will
Yeah, because I feel like.

00:36:29:02 - 00:36:29:12
Queline
I've.

00:36:31:09 - 00:36:33:15
Will
Got. That's such a good show, actually. That's very true.

00:36:33:26 - 00:36:43:23
Queline
You have, like, the assassin, and then there's like, well, I don't know, British FBI. I don't remember what she works for it like.

00:36:43:27 - 00:36:44:22
Will
Yeah, I myself am.

00:36:44:23 - 00:37:07:26
Queline
I think she's like trying to find her, but she also, like, thinks she's, like, really cool and wants to, like, study her or whatever. And both of them are kind of finding excitement when they go outside of, like, their roles. Like for Eve, it's like getting like outside of, like her sort of boring, like civilian life and relationship.

00:37:07:26 - 00:37:13:02
Queline
So yeah, it's very, it kind of I think Deb's walked killing Eve. Good run.

00:37:14:03 - 00:37:29:23
Will
Right? Yeah. That's a good tagline. Thanks. Um, I do think they are like Killing Eve is basically one of the gayest things to be made recently that isn't explicitly about gay characters, like in terms of the subtext is just I mean, it's barely not barely subtext ready.

00:37:29:23 - 00:37:32:27
Queline
And then they well, they kiss at the end. Okay. I haven't seen the end of killing Eve.

00:37:32:28 - 00:37:34:22
Will
I do they, I've only seen the first series. Yeah.

00:37:35:02 - 00:37:51:28
Queline
Oh well spoiler alert, they closed the end and one of them dies. I think they'll know. Dies. One of them dies. I didn't watch the last season because I well, because I like I know I didn't have like whatever it was on. And then I heard about it online. I was like, oh, I'm not going to watch this.

00:37:52:17 - 00:37:55:20
Queline
I'm just going to end it season three or whatever. That's good enough.

00:37:55:20 - 00:38:15:15
Will
Yeah, that's how it really ended. I for what it's worth, my favorite bit from the film is that opening sequence where it uses all these kind of sweeping camera moves to do this. Like, I love the central idea of there being a hidden intelligence test in the SATs that recruits people to a secret school for spies is so cool.

00:38:15:26 - 00:38:18:22
Will
I don't. If you ever watched the TV show called Totally Spies.

00:38:19:10 - 00:38:19:26
Queline
No, I have.

00:38:19:27 - 00:38:21:04
Will
It's like an animated show.

00:38:21:07 - 00:38:21:21
Queline
Yeah.

00:38:22:08 - 00:38:22:27
Will
I think it.

00:38:22:27 - 00:38:25:17
Queline
Comes out when I was like, little. I don't remember as well.

00:38:26:07 - 00:38:59:03
Will
It wasn't particularly good, but it came out around the same time and it has no subtext whatsoever, unsurprisingly, for kids movie, TV show made in the noughties. But it has a really well-developed weird lore about like how these teen girls ended up working as spies and like how it works. So like they whenever they get like a notification that they've got to go out and like be spies wherever they are, like a trap door will open like a little desk, and they go down like ships and land in the same, like office where they're like put in.

00:38:59:03 - 00:39:15:18
Will
They have, they're these like vinyl jumpsuits they're in and they have all their gadgets and there's like this running joke that like, how are they getting these desks in these places? Like sometimes they're upstairs, like, how is it, where's the tube going? And I wish there were jokes like that in this. Sorry, I keep being really negative about it.

00:39:15:28 - 00:39:39:11
Will
For what it's worth, I do think that is a really fun watch and also like a great crowd movie. Yeah, some of the stuff that feels rough to me, like the pacing, especially in the last half. No problem. If you had a couple of drinks, you have your friends with you, that's fine. Time to talk. Right? Even though right at the end when they're building up for a bacon like finish, that's like an extensive karaoke bar when.

00:39:39:15 - 00:39:48:03
Will
When she's giving back all her assets, the villain, Lizzy, it's like, Yeah, you got to love it. Yeah, she don't love it.

00:39:48:09 - 00:40:09:09
Queline
Well I would just like going back to the S.A.T. that I just, I just think that's so funny because it is so boring and like, I just want to know what questions on there make you a spot because it's like. Because they say it measures your ability to lie. That's what they like. Just does it. It doesn't make any sense to me.

00:40:09:09 - 00:40:09:18
Queline
I don't know.

00:40:10:02 - 00:40:12:13
Will
Yeah, that's a teaser multiple choice, right?

00:40:12:13 - 00:40:12:25
Queline
Yeah.

00:40:13:19 - 00:40:17:03
Will
So like, how would it would it register an ability to lie at all?

00:40:17:04 - 00:40:17:20
Queline
Yeah, it's like.

00:40:17:21 - 00:40:19:00
Will
It's just like a great idea.

00:40:19:29 - 00:40:20:10
Queline
Yeah.

00:40:21:10 - 00:40:33:00
Will
For what it's worth, it was not well-received at all when it came out and again, like, unsurprisingly, it didn't get a particularly wide release. Um, it was a critically mixed box office bomb.

00:40:34:16 - 00:40:43:12
Queline
I'm looking at my, my DVD and it says, I don't know, this might be backwards for you, but it says, Does this gun make me look fat.

00:40:44:05 - 00:41:08:21
Will
On a great. I guess the gun thing is interesting because, I mean, guns are famously talked about as being like phallic symbols. Right. So I think she's having a lot of fun by having like statuesque women. In short skirts holding massive guns. Okay. So I just read you a quote from Pete Travers in Rolling Stone. As quite a prolific film critic, you might think there's no downside to a movie that picks up the skirts of babes in micrometers.

00:41:08:21 - 00:41:21:26
Will
But writer director Angela Robinson's dimwitted satire is libido. Killing Proves to the contrary that you have one that heteronormativity boiled down to like a single sentence in the film industry. There you go. That is a deeply embarrassing bit of film criticism.

00:41:23:11 - 00:41:24:21
Queline
That's hard.

00:41:24:21 - 00:41:34:04
Will
Yeah, that's rough. On the flipside guy for The Washington Post, there is exactly what you said. He said it's gay in a way that might be called homo normative.

00:41:34:04 - 00:41:36:05
Queline
Hell, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:41:36:09 - 00:41:45:00
Will
I like that. I think that's a good way of thinking about it. I can't believe that this guy watched a movie about lesbian characters and was like, This isn't erotic to me. One star.

00:41:45:11 - 00:41:48:13
Queline
Why is this movie not made specifically for my tastes?

00:41:49:04 - 00:42:00:03
Will
I'll have to go watch all of the other films ever made. Queline since a fab chatting to you, we are kind of at the end of what I normally talk about in this stuff, but is there thing you want to talk about? The films we haven't covered yet?

00:42:01:19 - 00:42:27:25
Queline
Let me see. I have notes now. The only thing I want to say is I love Scud hurts. Lucy Diamond sidekick. Okay I just love yeah love how here is name is just scud like they pull up his file or whatever it's scud and I love how like you think he's going to be like a little like, like henchman or something, but he's just like her wingman and her bestie.

00:42:27:25 - 00:42:52:14
Will
Scott is like, by far my favorite thing in the film. Yeah, just like a normal technical point of view in comedies. And as you say, like the most disarming thing is that he's like genuinely, extremely tender, nice. He's like semi catchphrases like, hey, fighting is easy, but love is hard, okay? And it's like I've said, absolutely straight. And during one of the many montages, he like keeps up a nice private message, like instant message conversation with Janet.

00:42:52:14 - 00:43:09:15
Will
Yeah, apparently just friendly. I don't think they get together at the end. As far as I remember. But he does like he drives her to her dates, he picks her up, he like stops the car when she wants to go back and talk to another person. And also when she tries to bomb Australia during the third act of the film, he he's like, hey!

00:43:09:22 - 00:43:24:18
Will
And he turns off the super villain machine and it's like, look, now in a way that I think is a really good well-observed joke about like break ups and stuff in the same way that a friend might tell you, Don't dye your hair blue, I know you really want to, but you should. And he's like, Go blow up Australia, come on, what did they do to you?

00:43:24:18 - 00:43:25:29
Will
He says.

00:43:25:29 - 00:43:29:22
Queline
Yeah, look, this movie has such a vendetta against Australia.

00:43:31:09 - 00:43:49:15
Will
I think that's a weird thing that happened around that time because I don't know if you know this, but in the back story of Grand Theft Auto, America had a war with Australia in the 1970s. Oh yeah, it is completely like. Yeah, it's very consistent across all the games, but it is completely in the background. Like it's wild.

00:43:50:12 - 00:44:09:17
Will
Like I'm talking about like I think in Vice City, which is the most historical of recent to the war, there's an advert for guns on the radio where they talk about like fighting koalas and wombats. And then someone in one of the gunshots is like, Yeah, I served in Australia kind of thing. And then it just, they had very low level references from that.

00:44:09:17 - 00:44:15:06
Will
I think in DC five the guy is running for president and the online campaign talks about having better the Australia War.

00:44:15:20 - 00:44:16:28
Queline
Wow, I never noticed that.

00:44:17:21 - 00:44:29:26
Will
And one day I was like in this gun shop, like, you know, looking at my phone or something and I hear this line and I'm like, Hmm, that's interesting. Why? I mean, just was it a Jimmi Simpson?

00:44:30:06 - 00:44:39:02
Queline
Yeah, Jimmi Simpson. He was in that one Black Mirror episode like the Star Trek USS Callister.

00:44:39:26 - 00:44:45:10
Will
Yeah. And he's on Always Sunny in Philadelphia. That's where I'm from. He's also in Westworld.

00:44:45:26 - 00:44:47:05
Queline
Mm.

00:44:47:05 - 00:45:03:14
Will
And he was in there. They did another version of The Man Who Fell to Earth. Ha did not know that. He is also in Herbie Fully Loaded. So obviously he knows as a Robinson. Well, that's good. Oh, and he's just Broadway as well. I love this guy. I love this for him. He's just out there doing this stuff.

00:45:04:16 - 00:45:16:05
Will
He was in Zodiac. This is a good TV call. Always good to have a love in for Jimmi Simpson. Queline. Is there anything that you'd like to plug while we're here?

00:45:17:12 - 00:45:19:13
Queline
Oh, geez.

00:45:19:13 - 00:45:20:29
Will
You haven't mentioned your YouTube channel.

00:45:20:29 - 00:45:28:11
Queline
Yeah. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Kiki crazed. And what is this going up? I might have a new video up. I have.

00:45:28:18 - 00:45:29:20
Will
No idea what's going.

00:45:29:20 - 00:45:41:28
Queline
On. Well, I'll probably have a do with it because I say Library Anthology Volume five is coming out soon. I think as of when we're recording it, it'll be out probably next week. So.

00:45:42:04 - 00:46:06:09
Will
And shaping up to be a doozy, too. Yeah. And also Queline recently did a video about Oscar winner Everything Everywhere All at once, which is a really fab video. And you should watch for the transitions alone, but also makes a beautiful argument about how Son Lux has used this single melody over the course of multiple soundtracks and projects which shows up in every role once gone.

00:46:06:09 - 00:46:07:19
Will
It's a mouthful, isn't it?

00:46:07:19 - 00:46:08:01
Queline
Yeah.

00:46:09:26 - 00:46:10:16
Will
Thanks so much.

00:46:10:29 - 00:46:11:20
Queline
Thank you.

00:46:12:07 - 00:46:25:19
Will
To hear more conversations on film, check out the indietrix Podcast Search. That’s indietrix.. I know, it was 2008. Search wherever you listen to podcasts to get started.